Thursday, May 17, 2012

These shall be the signs



Before he ascended into Heaven the Lord said to His disciples, 
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


In my name shall they cast out devils;
DONE!
Whenever the Church says "go" devils flee 

they shall speak with new tongues;
DONE!
We speak with new tongue of the redeemed, 
we speak to God in through His Son the Eternal Word!

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them;
DONE!
The Church is in this sinful world but not of it

they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
DONE!
Sinners are healed when hands are laid on them, 
those who sick to the point of death of the soul are raised to new life

It is a mistake to allow people to assume these things are the preserve of "charismatics" or Pentecostalist Ptrotestant sects, it is also a mistake and a distortion of scripture to read them in such terms. They fundamental to the Rites and life of the Catholic Church!

The Charismatic/Pentecostal miracle cult was only invented in the 1910s and absorbed into Catholicism in the 1970s!

51 comments:

shadowlands said...

Long Live the Charismatics. - Pope John Paul II, 1981
.
Open yourselves docilely to the gifts of the Spirit. Accept gratefully and obediently the charisms which the Spirit never ceases to bestow on us. Do not forget that every charism is given for the common good, that is for the benefit of the whole Church. — John Paul II, 1998.
.
"Popes Paul VI and John Paul II both blessed the charismatic renewal but said that it will fulfill its purpose only when, like the early liturgical movement, it ceases to have a separate identity of its own and is absorbed into the whole Church." Sr Ed Sousa

Michael Petek said...

If pentecostalism could be absorbed into the Catholic Church without rupture of communion, then that's a good sign that it comes from the Holy Spirit.

The real kiss of death is liberalism and modernism that remove the certainties of faith and replace them with unbelief.

Cosmos said...

Why was the Charismatic movement embraced by Bl. John Paul II then? It seems that he had great hope for it as one of the "movements" that would carry the Church forward. What is the distinction between the "miracle cult" and what, say, Fr. Cantalamessa preaches?

KimHatton said...

Cosmos

From personal experience, though limited, I would say that what
Fr. Cantalamessa preaches could be achieved by any devout Catholic who prayed for a deeper union with The Holy Spirit whereas the 'Charismatic Catholics are, in fact very liberal and very much into protestant 'happy clappy' style worship within a very 80's typpe of folk liturgy. More style than substance. But I only have two experiences to go on and I'm thinking back 10 years.

God Bless

servusmariaen said...

FATHER RAY BLAKE SAID: "The Charismatic/Pentecostal miracle cult was only invented in the 1910s and absorbed into Catholicism in the 1970s!"

I'm glad you said this Father. I've been saying this for years. I do not doubt the sincerity of many in the Charismatic movement but it has it's roots in Protestantism here in America. I grew up with family members who embraced the Charismatic "renewal" and left the Catholic Church because it wasn't "Charismatic enough" meaning it wasn't emotional enough. Some of them stopped going to any church altogether. This is not a good fruit. I just think anyone with a sensus catholicus should be cautious about something with its roots in Protestantism. More often than not many in the Charismatic movement are disciples of Medjugore. read this: http://credo.stormloader.com/Doctrine/pentecon.htm

Romanitas said...

I'd add that another concern with the "charismatics" is their effect on evangelization. Although their novelty has worn thin, and the youth in the Church seem to have a more conservative bent than the previous two generations, there are still places in the world, like Africa and Asia, where Catholicism is new and growing. What happens when their first exposure to Jesus Christ comes through a hand-waving, healin' through down?--then in ten years a new priest comes with the Latin Mass? We know, from experience how the light of our Lord is to be carried, but we should be wary also of how it is to be received!

shadowlands said...

My father has been involved in the Charismatic Movement for over thirty years. He is a daily rosary prayer, he won't speak on the phone until he has said his rosary. He belongs to the rosary fraternity. He goes to Mass almost daily. He says grace before and after meals. He is no liberal, far from it. He is a happy Catholic and he knows it, and as the song says...
"If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands!"

The people he knows, whom I have met are also deeply connected to their Roman Catholic faith. Over the years this has included many priests and religious.

I have never met a man with such strong faith in Jesus in the Eucharist, he has great faith in the healing power of Holy Communion, be it physical, mental or spiritual.

Thank you Lord, for the wonderful legacy my dad has given me, regarding trusting you, in ALL situations. (There have been a few hairy ones over the years)!

Michael Petek said...

Servismariaen's comment is akin to an observation of someone who studies the Bible and leaves the Catholic Church because it's not biblical enough.

That dosn't make the Bible a non-Catholic book.

Jackie Parkes said...

Fr Ray I think you are a closet charismatic really :)

Jackie Parkes said...

Oh u can listen to Prince Harry on his tambourine here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-18101473#TWEET146264

ORA PRO NOBIS said...

IT IS TIME FOR FAITHFUL CATHOLICS TO RECLAIM THE CHARISMS OF THE CHURCH BACK OFF THE CHARISMATICS!!!!

The charisms of the Church are scripturally meant for every Catholic. When those in charismatic renewal adopted the ridiculed and despised ‘happy clappy’ approach the whole concept and theology behind the charisms of the Church became alienating to vast swathes of Catholics from traditionalists to Latinists (where the charisms had originally existed).

Once again the liberals played a destructive role in this arena because the non-scripture believing liberals accepted the ‘happy clappy’ aspects but rejected the theology.

So we ended up with a damaging situation where traditionalists, Latinists, pew sitters, and Liberals all rejected the theology behind the charisms of the Church. The charismatics became an alienated and despised enclave.

There now has to be a paradigm shift back to authentic Catholicism.

I do not 'buy the misconception' that charismatics are all liberal. Far from it. Many are the only Catholics I know that rigorously adhere to not having sex before marriage, do not use contraception in marriage, and also use natural family planning within marriage. However, when you are using the charisms then this level of adherence to the teachings of the Church becomes easier.

ORA PRO NOBIS said...

We also have another ridiculous situation in the church.

Many traditionalists are to blame for this as well. It is no good saying that you are a traditionalist in one breath and that you follow the teachings of the Church and then in the other breath denounce these charisms (many of which were used by the saints that they say they have a devotion to).

This is simply hypocritical.

Fr Seán Coyle said...

Involvement with the charismatic renewal in the 1970s gave me what I can only describe as a new freedom to pray with individuals, especially with persons who are troubled. The overall style of prayer meetings never really appealed to me but I have seen friends whose faith and commitment as Catholics have grown deeper as a result of the charismatic renewal, similar to the experience of the father of Shadowlands.

Jonathan said...

"The Charismatic/Pentecostal miracle cult was only invented in the 1910s and absorbed into Catholicism in the 1970s!"
Then why do many stories of the saints include tales of these literal miracles?
St. Benedict drank a poisoned chalice and survived, St Norbert drank the chalice with a poisonous spider in it and survived.
The New Testament has stories of the apostles healing people by physically making them better. St Paul mentions talking in tongues in terms that clearly refer to unintelligible audible sounds, not as a metaphor for prayer.

Perhaps the Church has always viewed the signs in the way you mean but I think the faithful have been interpreting them literally since before the 1970s.

Fr Ray Blake said...

Jonathan,
What I said was,

It is a mistake to allow people to assume these things are the preserve of "charismatics" or Pentecostalist Protestant sects, it is also a mistake and a distortion of scripture to read them in such terms. They fundamental to the Rites and life of the Catholic Church!

I don't think that precludes the miracles of the saints, BUT the miracles of the Church are about salvation which is more important than the supernatural wonders of the outstandingly holy.

shadowlands said...

Anyway, whatever about who first owned and appropriately dispensed which charism, the truth in God is, that without love, all our offerings of worship go up to heaven sounding like clashing cymbals (1 Corinthians 13:1), so let's not worry who's appearing to be holier than who on the outside. Jesus doesn't. He looks into our hearts to see who loves with His love.

Personally, I find this a life long task in itself!!

Now where did I put my seventies fisherfolk album???????

mike hurcum said...

JP@ also told them in Rome by a letter to their convention. Your theology is childish go back to your parishes, practice the works of mercy. St Paul told them do not pray in tongues if you are not understood and they still do. The authentic teaching on charismatic-ism as practiced by this cult is found in enthusiasm by Msgr Ronald Knox. They are sign seekers and have in the main raised themselves up as higher than everyday catholics. I ask one question has the Congregation for the defence of the Faith recognized their theology. Do they have a charter, similar to the ones granted to Ignatius Loyola, to Francis of Assisi and other saints. They are I know authorized by the Congregation to the Laity but that is not a theological acceptance of any kind. When all you you who pray in intelligible tongues write an answer, remember this our prayer is and always must be with the intellect and heart that means as St Paul says,
"understandable by those present or else they will think you are mad". By the way any doctor will tell you this the swooning or slain in the spirit they claim is not in any way normal. When women swoon they do not carefully adjust their clothes. This I have watched with a doctor friend. In John's account of the passion the guards who came for Jesus drooped down when He said I am He. The guards around the Tomb drooped down in a stupor too when the Holy Spirit returned to Jesus at His resurrection. St Paul literally smashed from his horse going to Damascus by the bright light, the HOLY Spirit.Also when did the Trinity ever deal in death I mean slay the Spirit unless it was already dead. Get real folks be a practicing Catholic. By the way this slain in the Spirit started in the Wesleyan Church.

mike hurcum said...

I forgot St Paul was in a constant battle with the Mystery Religions and face it folks the whole of the First Corinthians was necessary as Ronald Knox points out to correct the habits of the mystery religions that were being practiced still by the newly baptised christians. Women decorating their hair was one, Jabbering away with the hissing and clicking of the Tongue was another. Eating meat that others had religiously been offered in a pagan manner was another. Even the Romans could no believe anyone having it of with his mother in law

Gigi said...

@Shadowlands: your father sounds wonderful. To paraphrase an old cliche, some of the truest Catholics I've met have been Charismatics.
I've been to what some would refer to as "happy-clapping" services and some have moved me more than others. At the end of the day, I personally feel most moved and included by the ritual of the traditional mass, but I've never left a Charismatic service feeling less close to God or less loved by Him and those around me.

ORA PRO NOBIS said...

Fr. Ray,

Just to clear things up here. When you say,

"BUT the miracles of the Church are about salvation which is more important than the supernatural wonders of the outstandingly holy".

.....are you trying to say

It is no good going from one charismatic conference to another just to get out of it what you can. Instead you have to use the charisms of the Church for your own salvation, and the salvation of others.

I think this is what you are trying to say. Out of interest this is specifically what I was trying to say in my first reply.

The leaders in charismatic renewal have tried to tell audiences this message but it seems to have turned in to a 50 year debacle of chasing from one charismatic conference to the next.

I have written to Charles Whitehead and Michelle Moran (who have both been ICCRS UK representatives & Chairmen in Rome) to highlight this issue and to warn them that this can't keep continuing and that they had a responsibility to deal with this issue. However, unlike many of the people who have started defending the Church on the internet I genuinely believe that they are clueless.

There is now a need to reclaim the charisms of the Church back from the charismatics and use them for the salvation of individuals and for building up the Church.

Jean said...

I am offended that you call the Charismatics a cult. I am a Charismatic and so is our priest. This priest is the only priest in the diocese to say a Latin Mass, which he does every week. He is also the only priest in this city who
leads a rosary group and also Exposition, Rosary and Benediction. He is a loyal member of the Catholic Church and so am I.

gemoftheocean said...

This snake handling thing...eewww...metaphorical snakes are bad enough. Even St. Patrick didn't want to handle them and merely drove them out of Ireland.

Fr Ray Blake said...

OPN,
Yes that is what I am saying,

Jean,
We all have charisms, your priest Catholic to me, the problem is seeking the wonders and failing to see God's gifts.

Michael Petek said...

If you have an issue with the charismatics, you're missing the point.

The Bishop wants to see a clearer idea of what is expected of us as Church. I can give him an answer right now.

What is expected of us is that we do what we must in order to overthrow the contraceptive culture. Contraception is the most excellent change agent for a culture. The most compelling reason to abstain from it is that its practice is idolatrous.

Not only does it break God's law, it also overthrows the foundation of His sovereign rights over us: His exclusive discretion to create a new human life or not on payment of the marriage debt.

Take down contraception, and modern sex education fizzles out.

Once you overthrow sex education, you remove the guarantee that abortion will always remain legal.

Admultosannos said...

I have,as a priest, been involved over the years with the charismatic movement and they have impressed me. The worship is, er, lively but that does not equate with liberalism or evangelicalism. For example, the eminently impressive Youth 2000 use charismatic styles but are deeply devoted to the Blessed sacrament, the Pope and Our Lady. It's too easy to paint broad brush strokes.

I don't get too involved with charismatics any more because, really, it doesn't happen in parishes and you have to have time to attend their festivals and conferences but they are a blessing to the Church - and faithful to her teachings!!

shadowlands said...

"There is now a need to reclaim the charisms of the Church back from the charismatics and use them for the salvation of individuals and for building up the Church."

This statement makes no sense in my head. It's like me (who hasn't been to many Latin Masses, maybe two) saying: "It's time to reclaim the Latin Mass back from more traditional Catholics and use it for the salvation of individuals and for building up the Church???"

In my Father's diocese, which happens to be my own diocese too, there are Monthly Healing Masses, where the Sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick is being given in at least three Catholic Churches. Many people are beginning to turn up for these, they are not Charismatic Conferences, just ordinary (if you'll pardon the pun) Masses for ordinary Catholics. The rosary is definitely being publicised and encouraged before and after these Masses.

They are Charism full, for Catholics. My father has always fasted before the rule on Fridays came back in, he was doing this quietly for decades (literally)!

We are one in the Spirit so please do not keep seperating us into different groups. Catholicism is broad enough for each person to meet with Jesus Christ where he is at. God stoops to the sinner out of love for the sinner. Please try and do the same for your brother or sister in the Lord or the brother or sister you have yet to greet in the Lord.

epsilon said...

My experience is not good - two examples:
One young priest really into charismatic stuff also into liberation theology! Not so keen on discussing abortion:(
Another older priest hearing confessions right next to the Blessed Sacrament exposed on the alter, except it didn't look like confession, more a friendly chat with lots of smiling and nodding, everyone else too busy being healed (a euphemism for chatting in pairs around the chapel) to kneel in adoration in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

Both priests very kind and caring but are they leading Catholics to heaven or somewhere else?

epsilon said...

Sorry - altar- an uncooperative touch screen:) before I get rapped on the knuckles!

John Nolan said...

I first came across Catholic 'charismatics' in the 1970s and they were, to a man, a pain in the proverbial. Smug, self-centred, anti-liturgical and verging on the heretical. It was a waste of time trying to reason with them. Anathema sint.

servusmariaen said...

I see this all touched a raw nerve. The point no one wants to address in this is the roots of modern Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement. I have nothing against Charismatic prayer groups, bible studies etc. but equating the modern Pentecostalist movement with the charisms of saints and holy people throughout the history of the Church is a bit of a stretch. I can only speak with my own personal experience with Catholic "Charismatics" who left the faith and went to purely "Pentecostal" communities. Is there good that comes from Charismatics? Of course there is but that doesn't take away from the fact that the root of modern Pentecostalism is rooted in Protestantism here in America. The one time staunch Catholic cousin of my father (who so wanted him to marry a Catholic that my father said she wouldn't use a toilet if it wasn't Catholic) became involved in the Charismatic movement in the early 70s. An itinerant Pentecostal preacher came to town for a revival and we all went with her family to hear him preach. I found this odd even at 6 years old. She never stepped foot in a Catholic Church again, slain in the spirit, received the gift of glossalalia, prophecy etc and promptly told us that, "the Mass wasn't going to save our ass"....My sister's godmother went the same route, left religious life, married, became a Charismatic received the gifts of glossalalia (no one was ever around to interpret per Paul's teaching) and they all happily left the Catholic faith and went over to be full fledged Pentecostals and these aren't isolated cases. I know quite a few.
Those Charismatics who have remained faithful Catholics I think are by and large those formed in the traditions of the Church.

shadowlands said...

John Nolan

You've been harbouring those sentiments since the seventies? Time to look with fresh eyes but first you'll need to get your heart renewed. Confession is a good way, I've personally found, also praying for those you dislike.

servusmariaen said:

'I see this all touched a raw nerve.'

Well some of the comments here have attacked the characters of charismatics, not just their beliefs. As a daughter of a faithful Catholic, who is also a charismatic, yes, the comments touched a raw nerve. I think any decent person here, if their family member's character were blasted would sense some unease surely?


"I have nothing against Charismatic prayer groups, bible studies etc. but equating the modern Pentecostalist movement with the charisms of saints and holy people throughout the history of the Church is a bit of a stretch."

As charisms are gifts of the Holy Spirit and we are taught by our Catholic doctrine that they are received by all Catholics at Comfirmation Are you suggesting by the above comment, that there is a different spirit at work in charismatics then? How many Holy Spirit's are there?

The important thing for any 'ordinary' Catholic stopping by and maybe reading this thread, is to know that the Popes have blessed the Charismatic Movement.

The Popes have the final say. All other people's words are opinions or shared experiences. They hold no power as regards Church teaching though.

I appreciate some people have had bad experiences with their fellow Catholics who have got involved in the Charismatic Movement but I also have had bad experiences with fellow Catholics, two of them were the most traditional Catholics one would ever have met. They were not good people though. Far from it. This does not make me rubbish all traditional Catholics.

If the Holy Spirit is choosing to blow in a place where we don't personally 'will' Him to, lets remember, it's His choice, not ours.

John 2:28 "I will pour out my Spirit on ALL the earth"

"Douay-Rheims Bible John 3:8
The Spirit breatheth where he will; and thou hearest his voice, but thou knowest not whence he cometh, and whither he goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Let's resist the trend to claim that our way is the way. The Church allows diversity within as long as it is in keeping with Church doctrine. The Church has deemed that Charismatic renewal is kosher, so even if you don't like it, you can still love the brother who's faith you can't understand.

Remeber the unfriendly nun in 'A song for Bernadette?' She hated Bernadette, thinking that she thought herself better than others. Once she saw the suffering that St Bernadette was enduring, her heart melted.

I speak to the Holy Spirit as a person, which He is. I trust Him for ideas when I am flummoxed ( I'm often flummoxed)and He helps me. I love Him and know Him as a seperate person to Jesus and the Father.

He loves each of us the same. We don't need to box Him up and claim sole ownership of His movements.

Just ask the Father to reveal Him to you. He will.
Douay-Rheims Bible Luke 11:13
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father from heaven give the good Spirit to them that ask him?

God bless all, love one another.

Michael Petek said...

Servusmariaen, your thesis might be plausible if you could demonstrate that there would be no pentecostal/charismatic movement had there been no Protestant Reformation.

epsilon said...

Shadowlands I agree with you that you can come across extremely un-Christian people among those who claim to be traditional Catholic laypeople. Some as outand proud as any sohomasser, others using it as a badge of exclusivity, nationalism or downright racism. The difference I'm talking about is in how the priests and/or lay leaders on the Charismatic side in my limited experience all seem to be very lax in the way they present the Catholic faith. In other words they seem to be all embracing to an extreme such that the as well as the sinner is welcomed.

Getting the balance right between tolerance and intolerance seems to be difficult for us all!

Adulio said...

How many charismatics are willing to be obedient to the church, when it comes to things like Medjugorje?

shadowlands said...

Adulo said

"How many charismatics are willing to be obedient to the church, when it comes to things like Medjugorje?"

Adulo,
I was not aware the Church had issued a final statement/judgment for Catholics to be obedient to, in regards to Medjugorje.

Perhaps you might save your own personal judgment of fellow Catholics until such a time?
Presumption is a sin in the Catholic faith you know, quite a serious one I believe.

servusmariaen said...

I'll let FATHER JOHN HARDON SPEAK:

Historical Background

The essentials of the Pentecostalism we know today began with the Reformation in the sixteenth century as a complement to Biblicism. The two together have formed an inseparable duality in historic Protestantism.

Where the Bible was canonized in the phrase, Sola Scriptura, as the sole repository of divine revelation, the indwelling Holy Spirit in the heart of every believer was invoked as the only criterion for interpreting the Scriptures or even for recognizing their canonicity. Thus Solo Spiritu became the basic principle of direction in the life of a Christian, in place of the professedly divine guidance by the Spirit residing in the papacy and the Catholic hierarchy.

Pentecostalism turned sectarian in the nineteenth century when groups like the Irvingites, Shakers, and Mormons broke away from their parent bodies over what they said was indifference in the established Protestant churches to external manifestations of the presence in converted believers of the Holy Spirit.

What gave these sectarian groups theological rootage was the parallel rise of the Holiness movement among Methodists. Experience of conversion and an awareness of the Spirit had always been prominent in Wesleyan thought. With the advent of biblical criticism and the solvent of rationalism, many followers of Wesley fell back almost exclusively on personal experience as a sign of God’s saving presence.

When some of these Holiness groups affiliated with the Irvingites and their counterparts, modern Pentecostalism was born.

Some would date the beginning with 1900, but, more accurately, from 1900 on the Pentecostal movement began its denominational period. One after another, new congregations were formed or old ones changed to become Pentecostal in principle and policy. By 1971, some 200 distinct denominations in America qualified as Pentecostals. While total membership is uncertain, ten million in the United States is not too high a figure. Outside North America, the largest contingent is in South America, where Pentecostal missionaries from the States have successfully evangelized in every country below the Rio Grande. Brazil alone has four million, of whom 1,800,000 are communicants; mainly converts who were originally baptized Catholics.

The most recent development in Pentecostalism was the ecumenical collaboration with Catholic groups in the United States, at first cautious, then bolder, and now becoming a pattern that gave rise to what some call “Catholic Pentecostalism,” but others prefer to say is “The Pentecostal Movement in the Catholic Church.”

From this point on, my concern will be uniquely with this latest development, seen through the eyes of its dedicated followers and described by men and women who believe they are, and wish to remain, loyal Catholics but honestly believe that a new dimension should be added to the concept of Catholicism before it was touched by the present outpouring of the Pentecostal grace of the Spirit.
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Protestantism/Protestantism_002.htm

shadowlands said...

Epsilon

From what I can gather lately (and I do not attend Charismatic Masses or prayer groups) the emphasis is very much now placed on the Eucharist, the Rosary and ever increasing personal holiness, or an attempt at the latter.

I do think in the past, there was less attention given to the Sacraments though, and more protestant type preaching etc.

As you say, balancing acts need practice.

mikesview said...

Father, some of your posters seem to have made a difference between "traditionalists and Latinists". Could I ask for a definition of these terms. One could also ask where do conservatives fit into the spectrum.
While we're about it, could we be a lot clearer about what we mean by terms such as 'charism', 'charismatic', and 'the Charismatic Movement'.
In case anyone thinks I am being obscurantist, imagine a statement such as: all Medjugorj-ists are charismatics and Latinists and conservatives and traditionalists. Can you be a Latinist without being a traditionalist? Are charismatics always conservatives?

Fr Ray Blake said...

~~Mikesview,
Quite!

and Shadowlands,
What is a Charismatic Mass?
What is a Healing Mass, to?
These are not terms found in the Roman Missal.

shadowlands said...

Father Ray said:

What is a Charismatic Mass?
What is a Healing Mass, to?
These are not terms found in the Roman Missal.

All Masses are healing Masses really. But if you want the explanation from a Charismatic website, here is a link:
http://www.hartfordcharismatic.org/fmHealingMass.html

In a charismatic Mass, I would say (without authority mind you)that it's the style of worship (music, prayer) that might single it out from other ordinary form Masses.

It would follow church rubrics though, naturally. (or should that be super-naturally?)

servusmariaen said...

CATHOLIC PENTECOSTALS

~ The Risk Is Too Great ~

HILARY CAMPION

The Second Vatican Council says that when we look at the lives of the Saints we are shown a most safe path by which, among the vicissitudes of this world and in keeping with the state of life and condition proper to each of us, we will be able to arrive at perfect union with Christ, that is, holiness. It has been my experience that this "most safe path" of the Saints and the path of the Charismatic Renewal are very different ways, so different that charity and alarm compel me to speak out. The spirit of the Charismatic Renewal is simply not the spirit by which these sons and daughters of God were led.




http://www.christianorder.com/features/features_2000/features_feb00.html

ORA PRO NOBIS said...

Part One -

I really think it is time for pew sitters, Latinists, traditionalists, charismatics and liberals to either 'put up' or find a different church to go to every Sunday. You either believe in scripture and the Magisterium of the Church or you do not. It is as simple as that.

I suspect that I am about to state a few things that neither traditionalists nor charismatics will like.

I first of all want to back up Fr. Ray by categorically stating that there is no such thing as a charismatic or healing Mass. He is 100% correct and it is non-arguable, however much they/you want it to be true.

However,

1) there are Masses (OF/EF) which are then followed by a time of healing.

2) there are OF masses which are conducted during charismatic conferences. There is never any part of those masses that have a specific 'charismatic' element (or additional wording).

Shadowlands - take it from someone who knows (and a traditionalist at that) - As I said earlier to Fr. Ray - those charisms where given to certain people who then decided to become their own separate charismatic renewal group. Before this group came about the charisms where given to people who where spread throughout the Body of Christ (to be honest they still are). Those in charismatic renewal are supposed to go out from these experiences/conferences and build up their own spirituality so that:

1) They can take an active role in their own salvation
2) They can help others attain their salvation
3) they can build up God's kingdom
4. They can build up The body of Christ.

However, what happened was that most became involved in what is now known as the 'charismatic jungle' who chased from one conference to the next, and were only in it for 'the tingle' (sorry to quote Americanised charismatic speak but, I think the wording actually makes it easier to understand what is going on).

At their conferences they

1) speak in tongues
2) have healing sessions where some people are genuinely healed (but not every time - God is not a vending machine)
3) people do fall out in the spirit (though some do put it on and it is blatantly obvious when you see it).
4) there is sometime deliverance (note that this is not the same as exorcism) occurring which can be scary the first time you see it because people literally start shaking violently.
5) There is a lot more to it than these four things! If you haven't read about Padre Pio, St. Catherine or Blessed Alexandrina then you haven't seen nothing yet! These things are just the tip of the ice berg. However the charisms can also be very small and make up a part of every day life without other people even noticing.

Now we have a major problem in the Church because:

1) We have the charismatics who are basically not doing what they are told to by their leadership and not building up the Church.

2) We then have the traditionalist who deny the works of the Holy Spirit. By denying the works of the Holy Spirit they are denying scripture and the Magisterium of the Church. They are hypocrites because they say that they believe scripture & the Magisterium and then go on in the next breath to deny the charisms which also played a major part in the lives of the saints they say they have a devotion to.

3. We then have the brigade that say that the charisms where only meant for Pentecost. If that is true then why go on and state you are faithful to the Magisterium of the Church. After all Padre Pio, St. Catherine, St John Vianney and Blessed Alexandrina had more charismatic events in their lives that you can shake a stick at.

4) We then have the brigade who say that the charisms where meant for saints and not for everyday people. This is a ridiculous notion because they were not saints when they had their first charismatic experience. Neither were they uber-holy the first time they ever had a charismatic experience. It was through having charismatic experiences that they were able to grow in holiness.

ORA PRO NOBIS said...

Blessed Alexandrina had roughly 182 (what are known as) ecstasies when she relived the Passion 182 times and also undertook a 13 year Eucharistic fast i.e. she did not eat for 13 years. The Vatican have also rubber stamped the fact that Padre Pio could bi-locate i.e. be in two places at the same time. Beyond this he knew the state of men’s souls without them even having to open their mouths.

So it is time for pew sitters, Latinists, Traditionalists and liberals to all make their mind and decide whether they believe in scripture and the Magisterium of the church and accept that bazaar things do happen which are known as charisms which the Church fully accepts.

Before I am accused of being a raving Charismatic go to my blog and then try and state that I am. It is about as traditional as it can get. However, I do 100% believe in the Bible and the Magisterium of the Church.

It is interesting to note that at Brigg in North Lincolnshire the priest has not only re-instated the altar rail and many of the original Catholic traditions but, also has introduced a course specifically to bring back the charisms of the Church. The shocking news for traditionalists is that *SHOCK HORROR* the charisms are part of the traditions of the Catholic Church.

muriel from seaford said...

I see fr wadsworth's talk is being discussed on the praytell blog now father.

shadowlands said...

I agree with ORA PRO NOBIS as they seem to be speaking with unbiased common sense.

Maybe the Holy Spirit is seeking to unite Catholics as one (well of course He is!) even with our diversities? We can each pray for the other's salvation (thereby fulfilling the rule to build each other up).

We are indeed, ALL called to be saints. We must obey the Church's teachings, whatever our preferred form of worship and seek holiness. If we fail, pick ourselves up, (confessions)dust ourselves off (penance)and start all over again(forgiven)!

On and on until the end.

And it ain't over yet brothers and sisters....

Oooops! sorry, did that sound a bit proddy? I do like their worship songs.

pelerin said...

Thanks to muriel from seaford, I have been reading the comments regarding Mgr Wadsworth's talk on the praytell blog - a blog which I have not encountered before.

Mgr Wadsworth himself joined in the comments discussion which made it especially interesting.

However not all the comments were favourable and I was amused to read one which said we were a 'captive audience' that night (perhaps Fr Ray locked the doors?!) and one suggested people should 'note their median age.' I actually thought that there was a good cross section of ages there that night. After all two of the questioners were certainly not in the older age group.

epsilon said...

It wouldn't do anyone here any harm to listen to 22:40 - 28:00 of this:
http://www.rte.ie/player/#!v=1148251 , the homily of the new Papal Nuncio to Ireland available until 27th May 2012

Cosmos said...

It's very confusing (very, very confusing) to have all of these intelligent people, including the great Fr. Hardon, make all these completely reasonable points about the charismatic movement from within the Tradition, yet still see the hierarchy support the movement with flowery praise.

I feel forced to choose between well-reasoned men speaking in line with tradition, or Church authorities (including JPII) who have read the sign of the times see "movements" as God's chosen means for reaching the world, despite all of their anti-traditional tendencies.

My tendency is to go with tradition over novelty, and natural law over positive law, so I end up often opposed to the hierarchy in opposing groups who oppose the hierarchy. Its a fun time to be Catholic!

shadowlands said...

Cosmos said:

"I feel forced to choose between well-reasoned men speaking in line with tradition, or Church authorities (including JPII)"

You 'feel' forced? Your will must choose to either obey the hierarchy or protest against it.
Which one is it?

You don't have to join in with Charismatic type events if you don't want to. You don't have to seek to make some sort of a judgment about them either, the Magisterium has not demanded this of you. It is not your role(unless you are a Cardinal or theologian or both?).

Any 'force' that you 'feel' I would suggest you ignore, it is not sent by God.

You will be safer that way, from making unqualified, unauthorised judgments about people's souls.

Just be the best and holiest Catholic you can be and pray for others to be the same.

God bless, I wish you peace.

Cosmos said...

Shadowlands,
When did I say I was making judgments about anyone's souls? When the Arians were around, you could conclude that they (including Bishops) were wrong on the issue of Christ's nature, without ever considering the state of their souls.
You can be "forced" by conscience and logic. Not everything is "spiritual," in the sense you are using it.

Peace,
Cosmos

akp5401 said...

This is something I've been reading about for a while. I am a traditional Catholic (by that I mean I am obedient to the teachings of the Catholic Church; love the Pope; strive to be a Saint, fail daily, etc) who would attend the EF mostly if it was available in my area. I am also trying to live a Carmelite way of life; I would never imagine myself ever ever being led to the Catholic Charismatic Movement. BUT recently the good Lord is turning my world upside down! After a deep contemplative prayer experience He gave me a hunger for praying in tongues. All I could say was - you know I have never sought anything like that Lord, but if you will it I will not refuse your gift. I prayed a general Holy Spirit prayer for 9 days and sure enough He blessed me with the gift of praying in tongues. I had no idea what to do with it; and was considering attending a CCM prayer meeting. Eventually I worked out a routine of incorporating praying in tongues in my daily prayers (always holding a blessed and anointed w exorcism oil rosary!), and the second reading on the Sacred Heart of Jesus calmed and consoled me greatly! I read Sober intoxication of the Holy Spirit by Fr. Cantalamessa which confirmed to me that some groups can be excellent and their members go out to serve the Church, and others who appear to turn in on themselves for the 'emotion' 'self praise' - but as in any church movement or group - you will know them by their fruits. There are many traditionalists who are the most judgemental and morose Catholics you will ever some across. I don't like the terms Healing Mass or Charismatic Mass - all Masses are healing; all should be charismatic as in the Holy Spirit is there working on us all. Anything else is using the Universal Mass for a particular group's own ends, which surely is an abuse? I like this 'new' way of thinking, back to basics! May the Lord bless you all on your journey to Him.